Curse

Accurax · Nov 09, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Hey, pretty good discussion going on

been reading through all the posts, and there are some pretty damn good comments and suggestions out there.

I've written a revised article, which Inde has very kindly posted a link to from the main page.

In it i try and answer some of your questions, and respond to your comments / idea's a little more directly.

Take a look, and either post here, or PM me ... no flaming though.

.. it took me hours to write that.

thanks mateys

crobarr · Nov 09, 2005, 09:41 AM // 09:41

the idea of gold no longer being "made" via drops, and only having more pumped into the economy when a new account is created doesnt seem feasable. that would seem to indicate that said introduced amount was basically ear-marked for that account. the only way that account is going to see even a fraction of that gold is if it's placed into there account right off the bat. the sudden influx of gold would wind up in the accounts of farmers before it ever had a chance to be "earned" by the new account holder. granted there would be some gold going back into the aconomy by way of armor crafting, ect. most would still go to farmers who are hording to afford 15k armor or that shiny new fellblade or whatever.

it would be the same as if anet decided there should be a set amount of ecto available in the game. between those collecting it to make there own armor and those hording it waiting for the price to jump up, there would be a general shortage. can you say OMG! inflation?

anet needs gold sinks that people actually care about. as long as my weapon is max w/good mods i could care less about what it's called since it makes no difference in combat. my droks armor is max and thats all that matters. i never buy keys, i use the ones i find and that's fine (i get keys all the time everywhere i go). currently i have nothing else i need so the gold just keeps stacking up in hopes that sooner or later there will be something worth getting. the 1 bright spot is that i hate selling with a passion. so i give items of all descriptions to low lvl chars. in the ascalon area, and sometimes take pitty on a new guy/girl (who isnt asking or begging) and give tham a few plat and some items to get started with.

anet, if your reading this: give us fun, yet useless items to buy and play with (like the halloween items- 1 shot items).

Dax · Nov 09, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

Hey, pretty good discussion going on

been reading through all the posts, and there are some pretty damn good comments and suggestions out there.

I've written a revised article, which Inde has very kindly posted a link to from the main page.

In it i try and answer some of your questions, and respond to your comments / idea's a little more directly.

Take a look, and either post here, or PM me ... no flaming though.

.. it took me hours to write that.

thanks mateys

I would suggest rather than just revising the article you should differentiate what you've changed, because now points that people have made will not accurately reflect the original article.

Accurax · Nov 09, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Thanks Inde, much appreciated.

Any questions please get in touch, no bashing when u clearly havnt read it all though

Symeon · Nov 09, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

man I'm not really interested in economics, prefer history and geography, but I read the first post and some of the following ones and found the issue more interesting than I thought it might be

Inde · Nov 09, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Dax,

I think Accurax mistated, this is an entirely new article giving feedback and comments on user's posts. You can see the new article here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...y-2-id1505.php

(I deleted my own post somehow, sorry about that).

Sample Attack · Nov 09, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

The whole GW Economy is F-up, The game is breaking in pieces, Players (Wealthy players driving the GW)
I don’t think Anet intend to flood the game with gold and rare items….. Because you look at the Weapon Original Value and Ecto Original Value. It’s only 200 gold or 400 gold…Those are the suggest retail price tag, Player Mark up to 10 ECTO B/c a group of players can afford it. Everything in GW is over price (mark up) .. Unlimited Gold being generate Infinite will create more players move to PvP or some other game very quickly.
Maybe issue the daily allowance for each player to have like 10k…
When total 200 Gold Drop from Monster = Make available one ECTO @ Trader (Fixed)
A net tried to fix it at some point earlier by reducing price everything in the game…unsuccessfully everything going back up.

One Suggestion: Make a buying/selling NPC with the Search Function,
Here’s how:
WTS : 5 ECTO = 60 k (can be weapons anything).
You give it to Computer Trader 5 Ecto , Set a Pwd “KDIWAY” , Set “60K” is what you want …
When the buyer Search WTB Ecto and saw your thread,
give 60k to NPC..NPC verify 60k then give him the pwd to unlock the chest holding “5 Ectos” ( you can be online , offline , doesn’t matter, NPC take 5 % of sales and transfer the rest to your account )….
After upon complete transaction; the inventory space holding 5 ectos is clear or (if you have more than 5 Ectos holding the inventory space, subtract 5 Ecto from the rest ) ****you can only sell items in your inventory …

Safe way of Trading , Online and Offline … Trade Channel and Local Channel Rest in Peace not to look at those WTB , WTS , Wearing glasses to scroll up and down…

Dax · Nov 09, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Dax,

I think Accurax mistated, this is an entirely new article giving feedback and comments on user's posts. You can see the new article here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...y-2-id1505.php

(I deleted my own post somehow, sorry about that).

Thanks,
I was wondering what in hades he was talkin about.
I was ready to don my +5 flame retardant jammies and let it fly.

Fabius Cunctator · Nov 10, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Very interesting post, good job Accurax, just a couple of points I found problematic:

Quote:

• Nothing is sold by merchants apart from that which has been sold to them. In this way item inflation is controlled.

The merchant would be flooded with thousands of items, since they are so varied with different damages, bonuses, types. The most practical solution I think would be using a search function right? Though it would seem strange to a new player since he doesn't know what type of items should he search for? Unless you made submenus and such, like Swords > Crystalline Swords - Long Swords - Dragon Swords, etc.

Quote:

• A-net monitors the creation of new accounts; every time a new account is created an amount of gold is “manufactured” by A-net and fed into the game.

Would the drop rate for gold for that new account be nerfed? Let's say that 200k are manufactured when that new account is created, those 200k would be absorbed by players in higher leveled areas by the time the new player reaches a point in the game where gold drops in significant amounts, the player wou I don't know if the constant influx of accounts into the game would be enough to counter this.

What happens if the merchant runs out of money?

I think most people wouldn't buy items from merchants, since most good items would be sold in auction houses, then people would keep selling the crappy items to merchants, which no one would buy, eventually the merchant will either run out of money or the value for the item would be decreased until it was meaningless

Dax · Nov 10, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Question-
Aside from salvage kits, identification kits, and maybe bag enhancements what do I really need to buy? Think about it.

What I'm getting at is that the state of the economy and how it is to you is not the same for everyone. I am not affected by things like inflation because I'm not dependant on others, unlike the real world where I am dependant on things like the price of gas. My paticipation in the games economy is a choice. Many MMOs the player is affected, because the need things other players produce unique to thier abilities...not so in GW.

I somehow get the impression that the article is based on the speculation on how the economy runs rather than fact. I would be willing to bet that Anet has the capablity to change any aspect of it that they see fit at anytime, and I haven't seen anything to the contrary that would lead me to belive otherwise.

I do appreciate the time it took for the analysis, but I think it would be a bit more relevant in a MMO in which the economy was purely player driven and players were dependant on eachother for necessities (sp).

Accurax · Nov 10, 2005, 09:44 AM // 09:44

""those 200k would be absorbed by players in higher leveled areas by the time the new player reaches a point in the game where gold drops in significant amounts, the player wou I don't know if the constant influx of accounts into the game would be enough to counter this.""

I propose that the created gold be dropped randomly, gold farming would be a thing of the past since it would be just as likly that gold would drop from a river scale tad as from a high level boss, therefore gold wouldnt be scooped by high level farmers very quickly.

""I think it would be a bit more relevant in a MMO in which the economy was purely player driven and players were dependant on eachother for necessities (sp).""

Lol... Aggreed... one of my aims is to evenyually get into a position where i'm working for a game producer and assisting with the design, implementation and maintainance of "player driven" economies, this would be my dream job.

However, just because such an analysis as mine would be more suited to a complex economy, does not mean that it is not relevant, the economy in guild wars is just as important to many mnay players as the economy in other more trade based games is.

This means that guild wars economy should be (and probably is) a main area of concern for anet.... prooved simply by the effort they clearly put into maintaining it.

My article was about the problem of new players who join the game and have a chasm of wealth to jump to be competitive.

If you had read the article you would know this.

You are right to say that particuipating in the GW economy is a choce.... you have made the decision not to, therefore your correct in saying the article/economy is of no use to you.... please note that this article was not written about you.... and refrain from bashing what you clearly have no interest in.

FireFrenzy · Nov 10, 2005, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I just finished reading the second edition thing and i have to say that have the right idea...

having played D2 for a while i started to notice how most of the "common items" (glot and prf gems) had 0 worth unless (perfect gem case) you were willing to pay 250 of m for an item... I'd h8 to see something simular happen to GW and my solution to the cash problem would be that you have say 10k per account or possibly 10k per RPGPC in circulation as was optioned in the second ed thread...

Dax · Nov 10, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

You are right to say that particuipating in the GW economy is a choce.... you have made the decision not to, therefore your correct in saying the article/economy is of no use to you.... please note that this article was not written about you.... and refrain from bashing what you clearly have no interest in.

Ummm I give you a piece of advice. If you are planning to be a Producer, AP, or game designer you should learn to take critism better. I was not bashing you, infact you asked for comments.

Firstly my point was the game has a simple economy because the designers I belive stated on more than one occations that the game is focused on combat and action over accumulation.

Second a game is not designed around one person but has to satisfy many people. I agree that the new user suffers the most because you are led to belive that you need alot of gold, but the solutions seemed to bemore aimed at putting more gold and wealth into the game.

Thirdly I don't need the economy, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have a decent one. One of the thing I don't like about GW is the fact that there is no dependancy between players so I can go farm raw materials but they are not worth anything because everyone can relatively easy. Why should I buy a weapon when I get get them just as easy with drops/missions/collections? My character is pimped out with good gear not because I saved my gold and purchased anything but they all dropped relatively easy.
A better scheme would be that players farm the materials, to which they can sell to crafters that have trained to craft, then sell thier armor/ weapons/ food to everyone. Then you can have supply and demand, and marketable good.

Lastly, the GW economy isn't the real world. Repeat it, learn it, live it. My suggestion is check out some other games and compare thier economy system, how players interact and become dependant on one another.

Zaklex · Nov 10, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I'm going to make this simple, since GW is a CORPG(aka COMPETITVE On-line RPG-minor emphasis on Role-Play), the economy, though important is not anywhere near as critical as people are making it out to be.

Yes, there's an economy, it is broken? No, will A.net do anything to fix the economy, probably not drastically. Yes, some type of Auction House is in the works, but the best way to implement it is what is taking so long. As for cosmetic items to make characters more distinguishable from each other, that is also in the works.

Earlier someone said that the economy was taking away from working on content, I would suffice it to say that A.net doesn't have anyone monitoring the economy on a regular basis which would take away from adding content, since they've stated that they play the game themselves.

Greatatlantic · Nov 11, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Now, I'm not a student of economics, but I do consider myself a pretty smart and insightful individual, and I think I see some serious flaws in the system proposed by Accurax's.

Perhaps the largest assumption he made was the economy in Guildwars is one singular entity involving every player. I just don't think thats the case. Yes, a new player's jaw might drop at some of the premium items, but a new player shouldn't be trying to get a 10/10 sundering +30 health max damage axe. They would be perfectly content to get their hands on simply a max damage axe, which might be sold for 500 gold by somebody who just reached the dessert. And I've come from Pre-searing with that much. Thats the wonderful about supply and demand, the one tends to meet the other. With this mind, who cares if a long time player could buy any item he chooses. He is never going to bother with a clean max common skinned axe, or other gear in that category. Basically, the new players will quickly form an economy of their own, which the vets have no reason or incentive to participate in. Black dye might not be a common commodity in it, but a lot of other colors will.

Next, the argument of NPC traders allowing for the sale of items sold to them. I sort of like the standarized prices of identification kits and salvage kits, makes them easy to deal with why make the game more confusing just to standarized gold supply? This is especially true considering these things aren't dropped, and players consume them, not sell them. So for identification and salvage kits, keep the status quo. Though, I'm not sure it was his suggestion to change these things.

Now, for weapon mods. I agree just adding another trader that deals specifically with the mods is the way to go, this trader should be modeled after Rune traders. Some runes nobody wants, such as Major Mesmer runes. Then there are runes viewed as essential, such as Superior Vigor which sells for 70k. But Major Vigor sells for around 5k, and does that extra 9 hp really effect the PvE portion of the game? And Minor Vigor is a couple hundred. So it will be with weapons mods. The best mods will go for outrageous premiums no player could afford, while just a few points that really don't effect gameplay much will be very affordable to new players. If nothing else this will make "perfect drops" loose their value, since players will be able to customize weapons a lot more readily. Oh, and make Mods a standard drop along with weapons and gold.

Then there are the weapons themselves. I don't see how any sort of NPC trader system can work with weapons. Other than Green Items, there are no standards, so the number of possible weapons is huge, with only minor differences seperating them. I on one solo farming expedition might get 15 weapon drops, and every one of them is merchant fodder to simply convert into some gold. So if Accuras expects traders to sell back weapons, he is asking players to scroll through lists of thousands of items.

A well organized auction house can solve a lot of these problems. I would however, limit it to weapons and offhand gear alone. Otherwise, you undermine the purpose of traders. I've never played any other MMOs (ok, I've never played an MMO you purists), but I've heard very good things about them from other games.

Now, Accurax's biggest proposal was to change the gold standard as something manufactured by monster drops. However, I'm not sure if he is sugessting the amount of gold be held to one number (say a 1000i's) with out regard to the number of players, or if Accurax is suggesting the average of gold per player be held constant (say 10i's per player). I see problems with both. Amoung other things, the number of inactive players is very hard to measure. I played a bunch when the game first came out, then I took a break for a couple of months. It would have been easy to dismiss me as having left the game. But I started right where I left off. How many players actually announce their intent to leave? How long of inactivity does it take before somebody gets dropped from the economy. The number of banned players is so small its inconsequential. In the meanwhile, they aren't participating in the economy, and those that are run around and get the gold. Since your bullet points seems to suggesting adding gold when somebody joins and adding gold again when somebody drops, which would create a very akward flood of gold when the next chapter comes out, and then a dry spell as sales slow, since there would be no way to know if a player had "dropped" for a couple of months. And who would be in a position to get that flood of gold? The level 20s who have the time to farm outside Ascalon unless the amount of the drop is still dependent upon the level of the enemy. If that is the case, then gold will be all but non-existent for players joining after the initial rush, since what few gold drops they will get in the starter areas will be very small and still have to be shared among the party. And one of the problems Accurax hoped to solve was new players not being able to participate in the game's economy. Throwing gold into the economy to balance a new player joining only works if that new player is somehow able to get their hands on it.

The Federal Reserve is staffed by some of the greatest economists in the world, and they don't know what they're doing half the time. To expect A Net to figure out the exact equation, or even an approximate equation, to solve the game's senior player hoarding gold problem is sort of like expecting a retailer to figure out Duke Nukem Forever's release date.

Anyways, I certainly didn't try to solve the game's economy shortfallings like Accurax did, I'm just pointing out that he might have some work to do. Personally, I think adding Auction houses for weapons, and dealers for mods will go a long way towards "fixing" the game.

Dax · Nov 11, 2005, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaklex

I'm going to make this simple, since GW is a CORPG(aka COMPETITVE On-line RPG-minor emphasis on Role-Play), the economy, though important is not anywhere near as critical as people are making it out to be.

Yes, there's an economy, it is broken? No, will A.net do anything to fix the economy, probably not drastically. Yes, some type of Auction House is in the works, but the best way to implement it is what is taking so long. As for cosmetic items to make characters more distinguishable from each other, that is also in the works.

Earlier someone said that the economy was taking away from working on content, I would suffice it to say that A.net doesn't have anyone monitoring the economy on a regular basis which would take away from adding content, since they've stated that they play the game themselves.

Agreed.
Being that GW is labeled as a CORPG, which is a genius marketing move on thier part, it is a MMO for non-mmo players The economy is for the most part inconsequential (sp). Anyone who tries to fix it is thinking too hard....

If anet looked at things and decided that the merchants were out of something they could easily create more. I'm sorry it's really that simple, they control it.

Accurax · Nov 11, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Ok ok ok,

first of all i apoligise to Dax for responding so harshly to his critisism... (RL issues work and shit, was in pretty bad mood, u just took the fall out)

Anyhow, Greatatlantic, Interesting comments, i appreciate the time you put into writing it.

Your best point was that of monitoring the activity of players, and the hording of gold.

Well first of all i'd like to point you to my article and in particular the section that says

"". I am going to use Guild Wars as an model for this suggestion. I am not suggesting that we start making drastic changes to the game as it is, simply that if it were done this way from the beginning I believe things would be better.""

My article was never intended to suggest that changes be made now, allthough i think it would be kinda fun <evil grins>, but more that things could have been done in a better way from the start.

It was hoped by the auther that maybe some improvements could be derived for implementation now.

Your point is extreemly valid, and very well made. in order to removed the preoblem of gold hordeing, you would have to do exactly that, remove the horded gold, and start again with a new system.

This would create some very very unhappy people.... and Lynch mobs are not unknown in my area of england.

Lastly one of you said something about economists in the RW not being able to fix the RW economies... so why should we expect Anet to be able to make the GW economy work.... cant find it now... sure i read it though

cant be arsed to look gotta pick GF up from work in 10.

anyway, the short answer is that the RW economists dont have the luxury of being able to programme the RW in any way they choose.... pretty easy i'd have thought to make a perfect economy in a system that you have total controll over... ie a game.

Anyway, thanks again guys, and sorry once more Dax i feel bad

Just my thoughts

Dax

""Lastly, the GW economy isn't the real world. Repeat it, learn it, live it. My suggestion is check out some other games and compare thier economy system, how players interact and become dependant on one another.""

True, GW isnt the real world, but then economics doesnt deal with the real world EVEN IN the real world.... Economics is by definition a theoretical science..... it generally studies models of economies in which certain segments are held stationary, or removed..... this is known as Ceterus Pariba, (All things being Equal), in this sense GW makes the perfect study of an economy.

Accurax · Nov 11, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

arrg its misseed the last bit... gtg collect gf from work.. ill amend later on

Dax · Nov 12, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accurax

True, GW isnt the real world, but then economics doesnt deal with the real world EVEN IN the real world.... Economics is by definition a theoretical science..... it generally studies models of economies in which certain segments are held stationary, or removed..... this is known as Ceterus Pariba, (All things being Equal), in this sense GW makes the perfect study of an economy.

It's all good, I do enjoy the discussion and once again I appreciate the time it took to do all the research. You do have some good points especially about ebayers and new players experience. I too appologise if I seem too critical.

But really a good way to learn what works and what doesn't is to study different MMO's - what works and what keeps people playing ect. Many of them are relatively inexpensive and the first month is usually free. A good thing to do when waiting for chapter 2.

twicky_kid · Nov 12, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

GW can fix the econemy in many ways.

1. they DO control prices so they don't get out of hand from people hording items.

2. made aoe less affective so less gold is pumped into econemy slowing inflation. soloing is not nerfed as everyone seems to think it is its only slowed.

3. make drops increase with more people in party. that would incourage teamplay and would put a huge dent in the botters. instead of 1 computer they have to run 8 for a farm run. that can get expensive fast.

4. chest were a great idea for removing gold and increasing quality drops.

5. increased skills cost sto remove more gold from game.

so far i think they have done an execllent job. no one has problems getting drok armor or weapons. don't agree fully with skill cost as new players really need skills b/c this is a skill based game. at least skill caps should cost less. i gained many of my skills much earlier in the game with skills caps b/c they where cheaper and got better skills faster.

6 months later the econemy is some what stable and they have done a great job so far. most games econemy would have been shot to crap by now.